Transcript from Conversation between Bjørn Haugland and Bawa Jain

Good morning in the USA good evening in Norway welcome to another wonderful conversations with one of the great leaders in the climate control on the issues of climate which are so critical that if we don't address it we do so at our own Peril today we are honored and I feel very privileged to have my dear friend and brother from another mother Bjørn Haugland the CEO of SKIFT who is joining us for this conversation and from our side we have our collaborator our partner my dear friend Bart Myers the CEO of Countable and Causes.com so today we hope to have a great conversation a challenging conversation an informative conversation so beyond let's begin by just you introducing yourself and telling the people on this channel something they may not know about Bjørn Haugland all right thank you uh first of all thank you so much for the invitation and and for the warm uh warm uh introduction so so thank you for that uh well and it is good to to see you again here uh today um my name is Bjørn Haugland I'm basically working with the business sector of of Norway to transform the economy of Norway and and build green competitiveness uh for the the biggest actors in the Norwegian business sector so see if there's an initiative where we work with the CEOs we work with the companies um we are both curious and impatient driving the climate transition of the companies in in Norway in Nordic and in Europe and then I'm very happy to also serve as a advisor at your platform for the Center of Responsible Leadership because obviously the transformation we are into is a global transformation and uh I think particular in the times we are living today with a lot of geopolitical stress and uncertainties it is very much important to be engaged in these kind of initiatives which we try to unite each other because the world will only succeed if the whole world succeed with respect to the 17 sustainable development goals and particular goal 13 on the climate action so so that's who I am I'm also working a lot with startups so I'm just both investing and working with different startups again here in in Norway to bring forward youth to bring forward new initiatives and to bring forward new Solutions so um uh apart from that you challenged me something not even you know about me you know as my brother yes well uh I I am you know on my spare time I am um I'm enjoying hang lighting uh that I've done since uh my uh my I was 15 and uh what uh what Baba know and you rest of you don't know is that I have promised Bawa knows and the rest of you don't know if that I will take him in a hang glider over the city of Bergen which is my hometown and uh and we will do that and uh you know Bawa is very popular in Bergen and um and I think we will do some great things together there so uh stay tuned next time we will have this kind of dialogue it will be live on the hang glider so I'm not sure about where how you can facilitate that part but uh we we will give you a challenge there oh my God here we go I will be coming down the lovely mountains of Bergen into the center square with Beyond okay exactly I like I like that challenge I like that but beyond you that's a couple of things which uh I want to talk one is I learned in Norway or from a different times there that Norwegians in their basic commitment commit to almost five different causes each one of them that is very unique I mean this is a country which seems to have in their DNA the notion of giving back to the world of doing good in the world why is that so well uh I think probably part of of the reason is that Norway is a very small country in in number of of you know the pollution the population of Norway so so and I think at least for me personally because I've been working globally in in Asia and China in Korea many places and I see the benefit of coming from a small country because when when then you approach the world with curiosity you know I I have seen Americans coming to China and it seems like they know everything from day one about China but I see people coming to to China and other countries from smaller countries they are more curious about how is the this country working how is this culture working so so so again uh I think that is one of the benefits uh from from Norway but that we are born and raised in a very small part of the world and and that gave us a curiosity of understanding the world and and I think that's that's part of our DNA and I think today that is also probably one of our you know uh strongest elements in our culture I hope one day the rest of the world can also emulate what you people do in Norway but it brings me to another Point uh that I know that in your past you've also be in the chief sustainability officer of dnbgl amongst other things you're the one who helped facilitate also when I came to meet the Crown Prince and the dialogue and several other things to me is Norway seems to be unique in taking the leadership and one of the things is you have the world's wealthiest Sovereign fund so where is Norway headed in this uh battle I think it's really a battle on issues of climate control

yeah and and this is really a discussion in in Norway today because this fund you know we are also how to say it in in a mild way but we are profiting a lot on the uh War the terrible war in Ukraine hmm because of the the spike in Energy prices so and and also that Europe you know want to be independent on the energy from from Russia and I then looked to Norway and so so we we are wealthy a year ago but we are you know by the minute getting much more wealthier now due to that terrible uh uh war and what's going on in in Europe these days so so your your question is really debated Nori Norway how can we use this fund and our our to accelerate uh you know a degree in transition not only Norway but but in Europe um and obviously also use that wealth to to do other how to say supports uh the worlds going forward with sdkis so um and and some you're saying that it it is a good debate about it and and it seems uh that that both the business sector and the Civil uh sector of Norway really would like now to do more going forward because we feel that is a responsibility but it is also an opportunity you know I remember your famous words at the United Nation in that uh responsible leaders Summit and it stays in my heart very clear and I've quoted you many times you said this in Norway we love to pay our taxes and we pay more taxes why

this is obviously for us because paying tax is an investment so you know when you change the world uh you use it also means different things so in Norway we invest in common goods like education system it's free in order to be educated and you know until University everything is free we we invest in our health care System uh we invest in in infrastructure and we invest in a civilized society which is not polarized but where we work together uh in all Dimension so

by by turning the the tax world into investment and investment for a civilized society I think you should understand why it is important for us to invest in what is common in in what will build you know our society forward and how we can you know make Norway an even better country for everybody to to live in and and that is why I share that phrase with you and your colleagues uh in in un and many people come back to me even years after this and say that we don't remember so much from from that conference it was a great place we remember we but we remember that phrase of you because that kind of get your you know get our thoughts yeah you know you know for me why why I focus on this is today you know we are all finding ways to avoid paying taxes and having that notion of investing in our future that is a fundamental change in the way we think and that's why I wanted you to speak about it and why Norwegians think that I agree with you it's a great investment for ourselves we have to consider that but it seems to me that people generally don't have confidence in their political leadership uh yeah I think you are spot on and and I think again coming back to Norway I think that is that is why we can leverage on is that it's a high level of trust between the government and the people and when you have that kind of high level of trust uh between uh you know the various stakeholder in the society you will also be willing to invest more in the common goods um and I think that that many countries around us and and globally are struggling to build that that trust and it can be various reasons for that it can be corruption it can be you know polarization it can be all kind of issues so so to to Really you know bring back that that trust I think is fundamental in order to to get people able to invest in the future and um but I think also that is so important in order for us to solve Global challenges together because then we need to collaborate it's no way you know outside a strong Global collaboration you're spot on because I look at the United States of America the world's leader right or the Free World and we've never seen our country so polarized and so divide it's almost like Congress and is is difficult to even function I mean for me I look at it and I think the whole notion of democracy is founded on the principles of healthy dialogue and debate but then you come together and agree on what is good for the country and the world that Spirit of compromises compromised today what can we do to restore that well first of all it's not only you us you see it yourself but the rest of the world also see this with America today and uh you know people on my Edge we growing up with with this notion of the American dream America was something we looked to you know a lot of Norwegians that have traveled to America to take part of that American agreement I would say that is not no longer a dream because you we see this strong polarization but we also see their role U.S take towards China or try to take and and many other countries and uh it doesn't at least for me personally it doesn't seems the behavior of uh of uh I would not say we're leader but but any leader who would like to work together and really get the issues solved so so I think that the the first restart on this kind of how to strengthen Global democracy is that we need to respect each order much more than we did before or or we are into now we need to be curious about each other uh and and and to have a respect and be curious I think that is a starting point in order to find way of collaborating because the three of us are different countries are different we have different backgrounds and and and that should be seen as a gift not as a threat so so respect be curious and see differences as a gift I think you know that is a great starting point in order to Build a Better World going forward you have your spot on I mean just I want to take you on another trajectory remember when the Millennium development goals were adopted you go back before that to the Earth Summit and then the millennial development goals led to the sustainable development s and you are one of the Pioneers you are a deep thinker and you are somebody who's deeply embedded today tell me honestly how many people in the world actually know the 17 sdgs and the 640 sub uh set of the sdgs how many people actually know them and understand and know what to do well it's hard to give you a number here but but obviously I agree to to your kind of overall uh um how to say assessment on on where we are uh for me it's always important to portray the 17 STDs as the future we want and it is a future who is bigger better and more fair for everybody so so that is is the starting point so that's why I love to hold on there's the keys and you see I I still use it on my my jacket um but sad that it is so important that we going forward are able to translate it to you know to different groups to different countries to different cultures because this is not at all one size fit all this must be a uniform framework which you know people can can see see their challenges into and and also find ways to solve their challenges based on on on their background and competencies and insights and so on so we still have a large way to go in order to build that framework which was launched in 2015 so we should have come much longer on it but again we we need to build it on respect on Curiosity on how all different countries and people can fit into it um and also on on uh how to say uh more um yeah common common uh respect that everybody has uh their own voice into it now Beyond you see this but uh you know the situation is dire you see natural there's a look look how many natural disasters are increasing in frequency and intensity around the world last year we had the hurricane which hit Florida which altered a map of Florida forever a big massive highways of swept away just yesterday now we've seen the massive earthquake in turkey and Syria which we pray for those people poor and suffering who innocent people are just suddenly gone and suddenly they are exposed to all the elements of nature when will governments and say the business Community perhaps the religious leaders when and can they work together on these issues to make the sdgs specific to what people can be doing in their own communities I say this because until unless you make this a global movement and have a common person understand what to do in their communities we will not succeed now again uh I fully agree agree with with you and and we we are far from from you know using the 17 sdgs as uh a common uh uh tool and instrument and framework to to uh enforce as you said everybody to understand what they can do and uh we will see more disasters going forward so the science is very clear uh as we are you know polluting the atmosphere a bit more CO2 as the temperature is rising the nature will respond back to us with uh you know a weather and a climate which will be warmer um doctor and Wilder and dryer so so we will see more of all of this going going forward that that's for sure and and I think changing the weather will probably be the one catalysts for politicians for business people for other organizations to find more together and to do more but because up to now we've been a lot of talking but a lot um you know very few things have changed on the ground you know for me is when will we learn when could we imagine that we will see a temperature of minus 108 fahrenheit in New Hampshire it is the coldest in the history of the United States of America much colder than Alaska I'm sure many much border than many other places on the planet when will we understand the gravity of the situation maybe and that's why I you know two of us have worked a lot to bring the business sector and the religious sector more together and maybe that is the turning point because as you know very well you know people don't trust the Business Leaders they don't trust business sector and for good reasons uh in many countries they don't trust the the political leaders and again for good reasons but they have a trust in the religious sector 90 you have told me of people believe in in one or the other sector within this this big picture so I'm not saying that this is the only solution but I think it's a great potential also for religious leaders to you know build more competence within this field and also to use more of their time to Enlighten people and to inspire people uh to take you know certain action in their local community no you gave me a very good idea I mean is it conceivable that on a national level we can start to convene bodies of eminent Business Leaders political leaders and religious leaders

implementation of the sdgs and then making it specific to their communities in their countries to see what people can be doing in their communities to help accomplish their students

I think that will be our next project and it's not only on the you know we need to do it on on the contrary level we need to do it on the city level we need to do it on a community level so so you know we need to bring it down uh uh and and this kind of you know zoom in and zoom out so we need to obviously do it on the global level and and a lot is done on the global level uh but I think this the next step is to bring it on Country City or Community level uh absolutely how do we do that so we we have to start with a country where uh we have a big challenge so I think if we if we solve a USA first um we will we will fix all the other countries easily

one more time God bless I'm going there not catching the giant first and getting them to agree to take the leadership uh the Congress can't decide on basic things man

no but but again I think I think the road forward here is is a Learning Journey and uh nobody kind of sit with uh you know that accept accept exact answer on how these things should be done so so obviously we we need to find a country or a community or a city where it is a willingness uh to do this and then we need to demonstrate by doing that this is a way you know going forward so I think the the whole notion of of doing this should be based on finding people leaders who would like to to to work in in in a kind of broad cooperation like this see there is such a disparity in the wealth distribution that when you ask countries to commit to resources to address issues of climate the global South which suffers so much already do not have the resources the north has to stand up and go and provide resources in the South to commit to them only then I think that you can bring them on board I have seen a great deal of uh you know want and actually intention and willingness to do it in the global South they lack resources definitely they lack resources and they will be hardest hit of the effect of climate change and the north have put all the CO2 up in atmosphere so or you know we have done that for for 200 years so so we are you know we we should act we have a responsible to act you know for me what's the problem so when you when you say that I'm looking at it you blame China or some other big developing countries you know for all the contributions to the missions and uh the CO2 levels but what are they manufacturing for for whom for the global North yeah so and as we know I I'm not blaming China for that because if you distribute their Emissions on uh on all the populations they are still below Europe and Far Below Us and then in addition your point you know the reason why we have kind of progressed on our our climate Ambitions in in north and west is basically because all the production is moved to China yeah and other parts of the Asia and other other parts of Asia yes and now now growingly Africa as well yeah yeah so but I think again it this dialogue going forward is not about putting blame or putting you know us and them and it it is based on a common Challenge and it's not only climate I think the the 17 sdgs stay very much ambition 17 challenges we need to work on so it's only one way forward and that is to to to do it together in a much larger extent and uh I think there to bring at least the religious sector closer to the business sector and Civil Society might be one uh instrument to do it

but

hi guys this is a great great discussion

um I that I I don't have a a ton to contribute other than um I think the one one area where where we have seen again and again um that that movements can take hold and that that um uh it I mean I mean it's it's it's intuitive to us but it's something that that frequently is um lies in the face what we see in the media which is that change starts at the local level and um you know so so many of these problems are are so vast when you look at them on a global scale and you look at them on a nationalistic scale and I think you know the the story uh that that you've told Bjorn of of Norway is is an important one because there's there's a lot of lessons that can come from uh people really Binding Together in their in their locality in their you know and and in the United States is such an enormous country to start thinking about these problems from the standpoint of local state local government local representation I would encourage really anybody within you know who's who's grappling with this to to focus on you know where they can um make a difference in their local community as a starting point and really sort of carry these values forward from responsible leadership to environmental um responsibility uh and I would highlight uh my daughter who's in high school and uh they have her high school has a very robust service culture um uh happening and uh I've been very impressed with with the level of participation and interest among these youngsters to participate in their communities to be in better environmental stewards to start thinking responsibly and this is happening you know at at the local level uh and they're they're doing you know local things in their communities um to to help to change behaviors and patterns um and if anything that's that's where this has to really take hold uh people have to take pride in their communities take ownership of these issues um and and really start to make change at the local level and that that can I think fundamentally make make a difference I was really curious if you have any kind of similar story of things that you've seen happening at the at the local level maybe even in your city that others may want to emulate

well uh plenty of of example but I think the key here is that uh you know people is people and uh and uh change as you say very often start on a local level and uh if it is working it's kind of spread out that's a good good practice uh and um and and and about it with your background on technology I think these days and and and for the next decades we will have more and more opportunities to to spread out uh you know good ideas good Solutions best practice and and all of that but but fundamentally I I still think that we need to re-install where we started the conversation uh we need to re-in install um this uh respect for each order uh we need to reinstall uh mindset of curiosity about each other and we need to look at different nationalities different culture all of that as a gift not as a problem so so I think again to find this kind of uh reborn curiosity about uh why are you doing things like that in China or in Brazil or in U.S or in Norway and somehow you know don't use that as a as a as a gift and as a as a driver for for Innovation so we need in this world going forward we need to respect differences beyond that is true that is true for me is getting back into uh rolling up our sleeves and what we can practically do here you know we are we've been very forthright and we understand candidly now that uh a lot of the countries and the people don't even know the sdg they're not I'm doing very little about it so is there some example or some way that we could begin to collaborate on actually implementing the sdgs and building this into a global movement uh perhaps on the crl platform start a community with that and to Showcase templates of what has worked in different parts of the world I'm sure you have some resources can you share some of those well I think the first we could do which is is quite simple but very effective is that we start to translate the sdgs into different languages you know so I still remember when I worked in China and you know the dnv at that time got a new strategy which was Global impact for a safe and sustainable future and I was very excited about that vision statement and showed it to my my colleagues and I said sustainability you know what is that and and I was you know you you of course you know what it is now it's they said this is an you know an American World or a western world and then we started this dialogue with with my employees and we ended with I think at a point 30 different expression in Chinese about sustainability and I think we you know by end of the process we we agree that in in Chinese it meant something like harmonious Society so my point is when we talk about respect the first thing we need to do is that we need to facilitate the dialogue in in in in the language in in which we would like to to you know get that understanding and uh I know the sdgs are already translated to the I think it is five languages within un but as we know the world consists of so many more languages just go to India how many languages do we need to translate it in in India in order to to get the the that great big country attached to this so I think that could be our starting point translate that's that's a good uh undertaking to you know launch on to see how to translate into the local languages and what we can be doing that is one but uh you know your spot on again in seeing is that uh the stgs for I mean here in New York right and say even in San Francisco I bought is and I challenge you go into the communities and you ask a community what you what can you be doing to implement esgs and they would not know what to do that is a reality we are talking about the most developed parts of the world right if this is the condition here imagine what's around the world so question is how can we have the common person understand what to do well I think we need to frame the question differently because as you start to kind of bring you know here is that City what what are you doing I think you need to be more humble in your approach and more Curious so I think you you should start with the community and you should ask them so what is the you know what is the challenges you are facing so that is a starting point so so so people should not be forced to put it into a framework so so you first need to have this dialogue about what is the challenges here and then you may offer that framework of the 17 sdgs as a framework which you can kind of then map the challenges which which will eventually fit into the framework but as an enabler because when you put it into that framework you might more easily also learn from others which may have similar challenges than yourself and this kind of thing but I I strongly believe in you know speaking the the the language of the community you are talking with and and bringing their challenges on the table first and and then you know you might use it as the ghee framework as a a way of enable more action and share best practices and get more insights from what other are doing very wise very very wise to how to frame it I like that I'll tell you recently I was in India and I was visiting one spiritual leader who you met who's the hugging Saint Amma and she is being appointed by Prime Minister Modi as a chair for the upcoming g20s uh civil society and mobilizing them I learned from them that they had done work in addressing 100 villages needs needs for the hundred villages so I asked the person who was head of it I said can you link them to what sdgs were accomplished in these hundred villages which you help facilitate they didn't even think of that before they were just helping the take care of the needs of the Villages now they will start mapping them out they said they would yeah and and I'm glad you are sharing that because obviously the most important is that I start working very specific on the needs and challenges they have so that should be the first priority for them the the reason for for kind of mapping it to the sdgs as I mentioned should be to just put it into a framework where you can hopefully learn from others and and share your best practice to others so so that so that framework is more kind of a an accelerator for for change in the world and for learning from the world you know what I love about you beyond is you make things simple the thing is that you and creates these documents and these treaties which are very complex and I like the way you simplify the sdgs so similarly can you help understand for a common person what does sustainable development mean oh that is very simple so uh because it is common sense you know it's it's it's a very human thing and it is common sense sustainability just means like you know like a farmer which would like to to develop the the farm so that the Next Generation uh can also live off the same farm and and bring it forward and and that I think is for me at least the the same thinking with with sustainability globally that we would like to in a very short time we are living on the earth we would like to make sure that all the generation coming after us should us equal or better opportunities to you know to their lives on on Earth and and that is the core of sustainability just bring It Forward improve it make it better make it shine and uh that we can do on a on a very local uh you know Community kind of thinking on a private thinking and on a global so so you know make the future better bigger more fair for everybody so stop exploiting become good stewards this is the Mantra that I'm getting from you yeah and that is common sense

very well said beyond very well said as a closing as a closing thing is if you could Envision that in five years we could accomplish something where would you take us and guide the people what we could be doing practically which will bring you to what we want to achieve in a competition see the world in five years well I would say I would say three things um first and foremost we we need to come to a place where we um have a much more respectful playful and curious collaboration globally because we we need to understand that in order to Build a Better World for everybody we need to to collaborate so that's number one number two is that um what we can do is to continue to bring different stakeholders in the society closer together and definitely it's easier to do it on a local and a community level and I think particularly again to bring the religious sector closer to the business sector because business actor we have love trust but we have a lot of you know technology insights knowledge resources and and and and I think it will be a very good good uh good match thirdly we are you'll see the tip of the ice Iceberg on uh technology development and digitalization what part I think is very high-end today will be you know 10 years up the road uh we will just laugh at what we are doing these days and we will we will talk about chat GPT yes you remember we we got the EPT or whatever we called it and we thought that was something very revolutionary and that would change the world 10 years you know up the road it is something different something better probably and much more powerful so again we should use technology uh really to make this drive uh towards sustainability uh much more and we should look at technology and ask our friend and not our enemy a great enabler I would say and as you're thinking so this is this is quite remarkable to get us thinking in things we could simply be doing which can lead to immense transformation and have a major impact on the way we conduct our lives and do our lives so in all this is what is the role of the United Nations if there is a rule

uh personally I I I I believe it is time now to look into the United Nations because uh you know my mother she is 95 years old and uh I talk a lot with her and and and and as he grown she was you know growing up during the second world world war and uh she believed that after that world war she was promised that by establishing the Yuan the world should never see a war again because now we have an institution a global institution should avoid what happens

and I just talked to her the other day and she said I'm I'm so kind of uh I I don't feel that the UN is doing at all what it was promised when it was established and I think that that is enough that we need I think to go back on the drawing board and uh and and see how the UN really can be a forceful enabler for all the countries in the world uh to help us in order to make uh a peaceful prosperous they are equal bigger but the world going forward and then we need a stronger U.N but but I think we need a different Union and and I don't have exactly the the you know concept of how it should look but it need to look different going forward because today it's not fulfilling I think what it was established to fulfill right you know which is interesting I'm so glad you bring this up because the UN is one body that we have globally where the countries can come together and agree on basic minimums and the thing is we cannot always just keep blaming the UN for all the bad or the yields in the world ultimately it is the 193 member countries who decide what the U.N can get involved in but a common person doesn't understand they think that the U.N can just really nearly get up and do what it feeds like it cannot so the question is how can the unb your Global body to serve the peoples of the world that's what it was created for we the peoples the charter begins with those words so that notion of we the people and service in the into the people that has to be restored and it is through leadership of the countries so I hope that we can through this debate on issues of climate get people also to be thinking on what Global bodies we need which can take care of the needs of what the society has and the challenges it faces today

and we need a stronger Union going forward even though it is the minimum we need a stronger event yeah and not only you and we need other organizations and stakeholders as well for sure but we need we need this un is also kind of a you know a very important uniter of of of the people

yeah no I I agree with you I mean just such a such a wonderful conversation we could go on I mean to me you are a unique example of responsible leadership Norway is a unique Global example of a country being a responsible leader there are few countries which we can single out and say are truly responsible leaders because you know what we mean by responsible leadership we are not here to judge anybody we are not here to Define what responsible leadership is we ask three simple questions and you answer for yourself and judge if you're a responsible leader do you make decisions based on the present or the future are those decisions based on conviction or convenience are they constructive or destructive that's all so great having you today Beyond let's continue this conversation let's begin some Partnerships and let's truly make a difference and have an impact in the world thank you so much thank you for inviting me and thank you for a great conversation today thank you